Renowned neuroscientist Dr. David Eagleman and Sadhguru address a question by a member of the audience, each from their unique perspectives.

著名的神經(jīng)科學(xué)家David Eagleman博士和薩古魯分別從各自獨(dú)特的角度回答了聽眾提出的問題。

Thinking outside the box is common to both of them. When renowned neuroscientist Dr. David Eagleman and Sadhguru met in Houston, Texas on April 2015, an inspiring conversation about the intersection between science and mysticism ensued. In this article, they address a question by a member of the audience, each from their unique perspectives.

打破常規(guī)思維對他們倆來說都很常見。2015年4月，著名神經(jīng)科學(xué)家大衛(wèi)·伊格曼(David Eagleman)博士和薩古魯(Sadhguru)在德克薩斯州休斯頓會面時(shí)，一場關(guān)于科學(xué)與神秘主義交融鼓舞人心的對話隨之展開而來。在本文中，他們分別從各自獨(dú)特的角度回答了一位聽眾提出的問題。

Q: First, I have a question for David: Have you ever studied someone who has observed himself or herself from outside? And to Sadhguru – are there techniques to achieve that level of human intelligence that you can observe yourself from outside?

問題:首先，我有個(gè)問題要問科學(xué)家大衛(wèi):你有沒有研究過一個(gè)人從外面觀察自己? 薩古魯有什么技巧可以從外部觀察到人類的智力水平嗎?

David Eagleman: It depends what exactly you mean by “observing yourself from the outside.” There are experiments with what is called an “out-of-body-illusion.” It is a little complicated to explain the set-up, but it has to do with wearing some video goggles and putting a camera behind you. With your goggles, you can see your own body from behind. Let’s say if someone scratches your back, you can see it through the goggles. You feel it immediately, but you see your own body at a distance.

大衛(wèi)·伊格爾曼：這取決于你所說的“從外面觀察自己”的真正含義。有一些實(shí)驗(yàn)叫做“出體幻覺”。解釋這個(gè)情況有點(diǎn)復(fù)雜，但是必須戴一些視頻護(hù)目鏡和把相機(jī)放在身后。用你的護(hù)目鏡，你可以從后面看到你自己的身體。比如說，如果有人撓你的背，你可以透過護(hù)目鏡看到它。你立刻感覺到，但是你看到你自己的身體在遠(yuǎn)處。

This allows people to sometimes have a clear experience where they feel they are six feet behind their body. There is a neuroscience group in Europe that was able to induce this illusion even when people were lying down. This gave them the opportunity to stick the test persons into a brain scanner and measure their brain activity while they were having this “out-of-body” experience where they thought they were six feet away from their body.

有時(shí)候這會讓人們有非常清晰的體驗(yàn)，他們感覺到是六英尺背后的身體。在歐洲有一個(gè)神經(jīng)科學(xué)小組即使人們躺著的時(shí)候也能誘發(fā)這種幻覺。這使他們有機(jī)會讓被測試者進(jìn)入大腦掃描儀并測量他們的大腦活動，同時(shí)他們正在進(jìn)行這種“靈魂出竅”的體驗(yàn)，他們認(rèn)為自己離身體有六英尺遠(yuǎn)。

However, brain imaging is limited in the sense that we can measure that particular sets of “Christmas lights” light up in the brain when you are having such an “out-of-body” experience; we can describe the neural correlates of subjective experience, but we don’t know yet why they are identical. Science is a little stuck there.

然而，大腦成像在某種意義上是有限的，我們可以測量當(dāng)你有這種“靈魂出竅”的體驗(yàn)時(shí)，大腦中特定的“圣誕燈”會點(diǎn)亮; 我們可以描述神經(jīng)關(guān)聯(lián)的主觀體驗(yàn)，但我們還不知道為什么它們是相同的。科學(xué)在這有點(diǎn)卡住了。

Sadhguru: I must tell you my experience of this. I do not subject myself to such indignities anymore, but many years ago, it so happened that I was at some institute in India, and they wanted to measure the gamma waves in my brain. They asked me to meditate. I said, “I don’t know any meditation.” They said, “But you teach meditation to everyone.” I said, “Yes, because people don’t know how to simply sit still, we teach them methods to do so. If you want, I will sit still.”

薩古魯：我必須告訴你我的經(jīng)歷。我不再這種侮辱了，很多年前，我碰巧在印度的某個(gè)研究所，他們想測量我大腦中的伽馬波。他們讓我冥想。我說：“我不懂打坐。”他們說，“但是你教每個(gè)人打坐。”我說，“是的，因?yàn)槿藗儾恢廊绾戊o坐，所以我們教他們打坐的方法?！比绻阍敢猓揖桶察o地坐著。”

Why I am saying this is – all instruments created by human beings are lesser instruments than the human system itself.

我這么說的原因是——人類創(chuàng)造的所有工具都不如人類系統(tǒng)本身。

They placed some 14 electrodes on me, and I simply sat there. After maybe 15 to 20 minutes, they started hitting my knee with some metallic object. I thought, “Okay, part of their experiment,” and continued to sit there. Then they started hitting my ankle bone – a very painful place. I still thought, “Okay, it’s their experiment,” but it became very persistent and extremely painful.

他們在我身上放了14個(gè)電極，我就坐在那里。大約15到20分鐘后，他們開始用金屬物撞擊我的膝蓋。我想，“好吧，這是他們實(shí)驗(yàn)的一部分，”然后繼續(xù)坐在那里。然后它們開始撞擊我的腳踝骨—非常疼。我仍然在想，“好吧，這是他們的實(shí)驗(yàn)，”但這變得非常持久，非常痛苦。

I slowly opened my eyes. They were all giving me a weird look. I said, “Did I do something wrong?” They said, “According to our instruments, you are dead.” I said, “That’s a great diagnosis.” Then they said, “You are either dead, or you are brain-dead.” I said, “That’s too insulting. I’ll take the first diagnosis. If you give me a certificate that I am dead – I can live with that. If you give me a certificate that I am brain-dead – that’s not a good thing.”

我慢慢睜開眼睛。他們都用奇怪的眼神看著我。我說，“我做錯(cuò)什么了嗎?”他們說、我們所用的器具看你死了。我說，“這是一個(gè)很好的診斷。”然后他們說:“你不是死了，就是腦死了?！蔽艺f:“那太無禮了?！蔽視邮艿谝粋€(gè)診斷。如果你給我一張證明，證明我已經(jīng)死了—我可以接受。如果你給我一張我腦死亡的證明—那不是一件好事。

Why I am saying this is – all instruments created by human beings are lesser instruments than the human system itself. A telephone can transmit the spoken word over longer distances than a human being can. A bicycle can go faster than we can run; a motorcycle can go even faster; an aircraft can fly. That means in terms of a particular action, they may be better than us. But in terms of sophistication, they are all lesser instruments.

我這么說的原因是—人類創(chuàng)造的所有工具都不如人類系統(tǒng)本身。電話比人能把所講的話傳得更遠(yuǎn)。自行車比我們跑得快;摩托車可以跑得更快;飛機(jī)會飛。這意味著，就具體行動而言，他們可能比我們做得更好。但就精致復(fù)雜程度而言，它們都是次要的工具。

They cannot be more sophisticated than a human being, because we cannot create something more sophisticated than ourselves. Therefore, the use of measuring instruments is limited. You can easily fool the brain – there are many techniques in yoga to do this. David was talking to me about how you could trick the mind that a smell becomes a sound, and a sound becomes something else. And even without any scientific gadgets, there are many ways to trick the human mind.

它們不可能比人類更復(fù)雜，因?yàn)槲覀儫o法創(chuàng)造出比我們自己更復(fù)雜精致的東西。因此，測量儀器的使用是有限的。你可以很容易地愚弄大腦—瑜伽中有很多技巧可以做到這一點(diǎn)。大衛(wèi)在跟我說你怎么能騙過大腦讓氣味變成聲音，聲音變成別的東西。即使沒有任何科學(xué)設(shè)備，也有很多方法可以欺騙人類的大腦。

The magicians of the world have mastered these tricks. They can pick things out of your pocket without you knowing what is happening to you. That apart, in terms of fundamental sophistication, there is nothing more sophisticated than the human system. This is the gadget, and the only way for you to experience the world.

世界上的魔術(shù)師都掌握了這些技巧。他們能從你口袋里掏出東西，而你卻不知道發(fā)生了什么。除此之外，就基本的復(fù)雜性而言，沒有什么比人類系統(tǒng)更復(fù)雜的了。這是一個(gè)小玩意，也是你體驗(yàn)世界的唯一方式。

How You Experience What You Experience

你怎么去體驗(yàn)?zāi)兀?經(jīng)歷到了什么 ？

Let’s look at how you experience the world right now. All of you here can see me. If you were to point out where I am, you would point towards the dais. But you’ve got it all wrong. Light falls upon me, gets reflected, and creates an inverted image in your retina – you know all that. You see me within yourself. You hear me within yourself. Whatever you have seen of the world, you have seen within yourself. Everything that ever happened to you happened only within you.

讓我們看看你現(xiàn)在是如何體驗(yàn)這個(gè)世界的。在座的各位都能看到我。如果你指出我在哪里，你會指向講臺。但你完全搞錯(cuò)了。光線落在我身上，被反射，在你的視網(wǎng)膜上形成一個(gè)倒轉(zhuǎn)的圖像—你知道了這一切的發(fā)生。你在你的內(nèi)心看到了我。你聽見我在你心中。無論你看到了什么世界，你都看到了你自己。發(fā)生在你身上的一切都只發(fā)生在你的內(nèi)心。

To some extent, almost every human being is creating various experiences without external stimuli, all the time, in many different ways. When it goes out of control, we consider it as a mental problem or mental disease.

在某種程度上，幾乎每一個(gè)人都在沒有外界刺激的情況下，以許多不同的方式創(chuàng)造各種各樣的體驗(yàn)。當(dāng)它失去控制時(shí)，我們認(rèn)為它是一個(gè)精神問題或精神疾病。

If someone touches your hand, you think you feel their hand, but actually, you only experience the sensations in your own hand. If for example you make someone touch your hand five times, you will observe that subsequently, without anyone touching you, without the person being with you, you can create the same sensation within you. You can either create sensations with external stimuli, or you can internally manufacture whatever you want.

如果有人摸了你的手，你會認(rèn)為你感覺到了他們的手，但實(shí)際上，你只會在自己的手上體驗(yàn)到感覺。例如，如果你讓某人摸你的手五次，你會觀察到，隨后，沒有人碰你，沒有人和你在一起，你可以在你體內(nèi)創(chuàng)造同樣的感覺。你可以通過外部刺激創(chuàng)造感覺，或者你可以在內(nèi)部制造任何你想要的東西。

To some extent, almost every human being is creating various experiences without external stimuli, all the time, in many different ways. When it goes out of control, we consider it as a mental problem or mental disease. But everyone is doing this to some extent. While you are in a dream, it is as true as reality. One day, a few years ago, when I walked into Isha Home School, this boy came up to me and asked, “Sadhguru, is life real or is it a dream?” I looked at him – this was an eight-year-old, so you have to tell the truth – and I said, “Life is a dream, but the dream is true.” That’s a fact. The way it is happening within you right now, life is a dream, but the dream is true in your experience. But you can make this dream any way you want.

在某種程度上，幾乎每一個(gè)人都在沒有外界刺激的情況下，以許多不同的方式創(chuàng)造各種各樣的體驗(yàn)。當(dāng)它失去控制時(shí)，我們認(rèn)為它是一個(gè)精神問題或精神疾病。但在某種程度上，每個(gè)人都在這么做。當(dāng)你在夢中，它就像現(xiàn)實(shí)一樣真實(shí)。幾年前的一天，當(dāng)我走進(jìn)Isha的家庭學(xué)校時(shí)，一個(gè)男孩走到我面前，問我:“薩德古魯，生活是真實(shí)的還是夢?”我看著他—這是一個(gè)8歲的孩子，所以你必須說實(shí)話—我說，“生活是一場夢，但這個(gè)夢是真的。”這是事實(shí)?，F(xiàn)在發(fā)生在你內(nèi)心的事情，生活是一個(gè)夢，但夢在你的經(jīng)歷中是真實(shí)的。但你可以隨心所欲地做這個(gè)夢。

You are okay for a joke? On a certain day, a lady went to sleep. In her sleep, she had a dream. In her dream, she saw a hunk of a man standing there, staring at her. He started coming closer and closer. He came so close she could even feel his breath. She trembled – not in fear. Then she asked, “What will you do to me?” The man said, “Well, lady – it’s your dream!” It is your dream – you can make whatever you want out of it. We can make this into a fantastic dream for ourselves and for everyone on the planet. Science and technology have done wonderful things for us to enhance our dreams, but I want the scientists to meditate.

讓我開個(gè)玩笑吧，有一天，一位女士睡著了。在睡夢中，她做了一個(gè)夢。在她的夢里，她看見一個(gè)大塊頭男人站在那里，盯著她看。他開始越來越近。他走得很近，她甚至能感覺到他的呼吸。她顫抖著——不是因?yàn)楹ε隆Ｈ缓笏龁?“你會對我做什么?”男人說:“女士，這是你的夢!”“這是你的夢—你可以從中得到你想要的任何東西?！蔽覀兛梢园阉兂梢粋€(gè)夢幻般的夢，為我們自己，也為地球上的每一個(gè)人。科學(xué)技術(shù)為我們實(shí)現(xiàn)夢想做了很多奇妙的事情，但我希望科學(xué)家們能冥想。